I thought it was going to be an article on safety-pinning buttonholes or something, fashion tips on how to keep your boobs from popping out when you don't want them to.
It is actually a rant about what women wear at dances, and how they should cover up more lest they provoke men into being "distracted by so much cleavage or full boobage that it becomes ogling and/or pushes them into creepy territory," or scar children for life. The rant is prompted by her husband having seen someone's boob that popped out of her dress on NYE; Lindy Shopper ends the post stating that she doesn't want to come home and hear stories about the breasts he saw, so we should all really cover up already.
(sorry for the quote so early in the piece, but it's just... I suspect I would be accused of hyperbole if I simply told you that Lindy Shopper thinks what women wear is responsible for how men act.)
Nearly every sentence of this article makes me choke. It's difficult to know where to even begin going "Nope."
The article opens with a story about one band member point out to the other that a woman's breast had popped out of the top of her low-cut dress on NYE.
I'm.. I'm just gonna quote large stretches of this, OK?
Yes, guys, I know you want to see attractive women at dances; however, the consensus has generally been that most guys don’t want to be a horn dog at dances, distracted by so much cleavage or full boobage that it becomes ogling and/or pushes them into creepy territory. Generally, guys who want to respect boundaries are going to be uncomfortable being pulled between instinct and decorum and are probably just less likely to dance with a potential wardrobe malfunction.Most guys don't want to be horndogs, but what you wear (or don't wear!) can drag them kicking and screaming over that line, ladies. Guys want to respect you (They do!), but they might be pulled to hard towards their "instinct" (consequences unspecified), and just not dance with you if you look too slutty. So there.
Why are men not more insulted by stuff like this? If I were a guy, I would find this article incredibly condescending.
I am pretty sure all of my lindy hopper friends who are male are grown ups and independent persons capable of making decisions about their actions, and are not dogs smelling bitches on heat, compelled to hump whatever they see or smell.
 |
| "The Man Show" |
"a full trampoline bounce."News flash: if you have boobs big enough to bounce when you lindy, they'll do it whether you have a piece of fabric over them or not. If you do have breasts that big though, you better watch out, because your lindy might as well be porn (trampoline bounce??). You should know what you're advertising. Oh, but sorry, it's
the apprehension that makes it so distracting for me – consider that the scope of the apprehension can go further than your dance partner. [emphasis mine]Her apprehension, and the presumed dance partner and onlooker apprehension, is likened to watching a car fall off of a cliff. YOU'RE AN ACCIDENT WAITING TO HAPPEN, WOMAN. I'm, like, so scared for you. [Actually, no, I'm angry at you for dangling the possibility of seeing boobs in front of my husband.]
She goes on to detail a number of other sins, besides just wearing dresses that are too low-cut:
For Lindy Focus, this was probably more of an issue on New Year’s Eve (as retailers notoriously only offer sparkle in cleavage-friendly shapes), but I did notice other things throughout the event, like sheer shirts over darkly contrasting bras (camisole, anyone?) and ill-fitting strapless dresses that looked as though the top were Hoover Dam about to burst from a flood of chest. Much of this goes back to buying clothes that fit you well (but not tightly – there is a distinction), but also shapes and necklines that are complimentary to your shape. [emphasis mine]Cleavage is a sin. Sheer shirts are a sin, having big boobs and wearing a strapless dress is a sin. Wearing clothes that are too tight is *definitely* a sin.
So, this is what I wore to the compete in the strictly blues comp at Focus:
 |
| photo posted with permission from Hilary Mercer Photography |
 |
| photo posted with permission from Jessica Keener Photography |
I am not ashamed of myself and I won't let you tell me I should be.
She goes on to explain that you should be more ashamed if you have a larger chest, obviously. (This is common sense, people!)
If you have a smaller chest, you can get away with showing more skin – this is an inversely proportional relationship. Likewise, the larger your chest is, the less skin you can get away with showing, because there is more of it.If you show too much, you won't have "gotten away" with it. You'll be a disgrace.
Finally, there's this:
Another consideration, for the burgeoning nudists among us, were the children present at Lindy Focus. I almost tripped over sleeping children near the stage on a couple of nights, but there were also children running around at the main dances. Let’s try not to scar these kids for life.Burgeoning nudists! That was almost funny! Oh wait, no, it was awful. "Wear things I disapprove of and you might as well be naked."
And, really, won't someone think of the children? The children? (some of whom, at Focus, were young enough that they might have been eating from a boob in the very recent past.) The children will be scarred for life by your breasts. Scarred for life. By breasts.
Little kids really just do not give a shit about breasts, y'all. Unless they want to eat from them. Whether or not they're the breasts they're supposed to eat from.
She concludes by saying the trombone player from the opening anecdote is her husband, and she doesn't want to come home and hear stories about how he saw your boobs pop out. So she wrote out these thoughts for us.
*I feel like it's worth noting at this point that I have written previously on my emphatic position that anyone should be able to decline a dance for any reason they feel like, so if anybody has a problem with what I wear they are certainly free to not dance with me.
UPDATE: Lindy Shopper has deleted one of my comments on her post, which included a link to the wikipedia article on "slut shaming," which I was pretty remiss in not linking here the first time around. Here ya go.
Update2: followup post, with link roundup.
As a heterosexual man, I feel as if I should be insulted. Wait for it... yep, I'm insulted.
ReplyDeleteWhat am I supposed to say to her article? "How dare you womenfolk go and flaunt your breasts, and turn us into raging hormonal animals that can't control ourselves even though we would like to? What were you thinking?!"
Ugh. I have never once thought about a woman's breasts while dancing. I'm usually preoccupied with concentrating on the current dance, the moves I'll be leading shortly, not running into people nearby, and not passing out on the dance floor before the song ends. If I have any additional brain power through all that, then I may notice what she's wearing. A former roommate of mine taught me to appreciate women's fashion in a whole new light, and I like seeing all the different outfits that are put together to go dancing.
In short, thank you for stating what should be the completely obvious fact that breasts are not assaulting us. If anything, this is an issue she should be taking up with her husband, not everyone else.
I'm a tap dancer, so there is a lot of jumping and twirling and well, TAPPING involved. So obviously SOMEONE'S boobs are gonna fly up. BUT WHO'S GONNA WATCH FOR THAT?! I don't wear revealing clothes at all, but LS is practically saying that my WHOLE WARDROBE is unsuitable for wearing out of the house- all I wear are tank tops and skinny jeans. HONESTLY LS!
DeleteInternalized misogyny is a real pain. And the idea that boobs are more powerful then men's brains - so absurd. I'm tired of body-shaming and excuses.
ReplyDeleteThanks for laying it all out.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhile I can agree with some of the points you make, I - a large breasted swing dancing woman - can also see the value of Lindyshopper's arguments (perhaps not the logic or stylized method she uses, but she's making some fair points too).
ReplyDeleteSure, I don't feel I have to fully cover my large breast when I go dancing, but I do wear properly fitting outfits & an APPROPRIATE BRA - A bra which does the job of not making my dance look like a trampoline exercise.
As for the contrasting bra issue, I must agree with Lindyshooper here too: It may serve an average to small chest size to wear a sheer shirt with contrasting bra because the bra is more decorative and less utilitarian. When you have large boobs, a contrasting bra only makes them look a)bigger b)shows the awkwardness of boob-to-shirt ratios c)just looks cheezy. Rock it if your small-er! But not for me.
Do I expect every guy out there to stare at my chest. No - how self-centered do you think I am? But should I be aware of my body and the benefits of properly functioning clothing/undergarments, probably.
Thanks for your reply!
DeleteThe funny thing is, I don't necessarily disagree with all her fashion/function opinions in this post. If she'd stuck to saying she personally thought certain looks were tacky, cheezy, or sub-optimally functional, I would not have written this post.
But she threw in a bunch of moral judgement that I just totally disagree with. Hence: post.
I didn't find Lindy Shopper's (LS's) post nearly as bad as you did (which I could talk more about if you like), but for now I'll just answer this question:
ReplyDelete"Why are men not more insulted by stuff like this?"
Well, first, I'm not quite sure what LS is saying in her first paragraph that you quote. Is she saying that guys are going to sexually assault women because of how they're dressed? Because that's a bit much. If she's saying that guys might be distracted, then that's certainly true. I'm just don't know what she's saying.
That said, when someone does claim unequivocally that some guys can't control themselves from sexually assaulting someone, one of the reasons I'm not insulted is because... it's true. Some guys can't control themselves, obviously, otherwise sexual assault wouldn't happen. And it's really getting old seeing people claim otherwise in the midst of so much evidence to the contrary.
Tim Martin
I think some men _choose not to_ control themselves because they (realistically) don't fear consequences of their actions, or just don't think they're doing anything wrong.
DeleteBut yeah, we can talk more later. Thank you for your perspective.
The insulting part - and the insidious part - is the link between "Some guys can't control themselves ..." and "... so it's up to you to wear different clothes." That's putting the responsibility for the guys' control on the women, on the targets. That's loco.
DeleteLike the saying goes: if your strategy for preventing sexual assault is to proscribe what women should wear, you're basically saying "make sure he rapes the other girl".
Based on the varying ages and physical attributes of assault victims, I would be surprised if the psychology behind male sexual assaults on women is simply because some "can't control themselves".
DeleteThanks for writing about this. I sometimes make pretty deliberate choices to be boobtacular during competitions (see: NSB https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/206396_10151167764987888_2091122740_n.jpg) because it makes me feel more confident, and I dance best when I feel like a queen. I was pretty boobtacular during NYE at Lindy Focus too, because it made me feel pretty. I really don't need to be shamed for that. I already have enough body issues thanks to American media and the in-culture expectations that lindy hoppers be slender and athletic, I don't need to ALSO be told that my boobs, which are ample of their own accord, are a shameful thing that I should bundle up.
ReplyDeleteIronically, my most secure bra is also the most push-uppy of my bras, so I can either bounce or be modest, apparently. :/
The concern trolling at the end of the article about look at the children just felt pukey. Kids love boobs, they're incredibly unlikely to be scarred by them.
Your boobs are amazing and beautiful. The concern trolling was indeed pukey.
DeleteWhile it is but tangentially related, the topic reminds me of a blues house party I was at last year where much of the attendance was from the crunchy-granola Berkeley / Burning Man regular spectrum. One of my partners inquired if I thought anyone would mind if she danced topless. Mildly taken aback, I commented that I doubted many of the *men* would mind, at which point she removed her top in the middle of the dance.
ReplyDeleteWhat I was thinking to myself was "and I'm definitely not dancing in close embrace with you for the rest of the night" :-) That said, things didn't get further out of hand and there were no children present to be scarred.
- Saying "men" would not mind makes a lot of assumptions about "men," including assumptions about "men" as opposed to "women." I'm sure at least some people would not want to dance with a topless partner.
Delete- I would be startled to see that, but I understand the topless thing is more common at Burner parties.
- Even if there had been children, I doubt they would have cared, let alone been scarred. The children thing is the reddest of herrings.
My reply to your reply and the original post! http://wonderwomanproject.tumblr.com/post/42363600099/assenting-to-breasts
ReplyDeleteYou are wonderful, and your response is also wonderful.
DeleteTimothy writes: "Some guys can't control themselves, obviously, otherwise sexual assault wouldn't happen."
ReplyDeleteSexual assault is about violence and controlling another human being. it is not about sex or sexual attraction.
"Let’s try not to scar these kids for life."
Children do not have the same shame and value judgements on the nude human body that some "grownups" do. That's learned behavior. Certainly, the "scarring" would happen if parent of said children scooped them up in haste away from the offensive mammalian protuberances.
—Crunchy Granola Lindy Hopper
"Sexual assault is about violence and controlling another human being. it is not about sex or sexual attraction."
DeleteThat doesn't have anything to do with what I said, which is that some guys *can't* control themselves. It doesn't really matter what the triggers are - the point is that there are triggers.
But I'm curious, since you said that. How do you know that people don't commit sexual assault at least in part because they're horny?
How about we pretend that was a rhetorical question.
DeleteIf you want to interrogate motivations for rape re: arousal vs violence and control you can do it on your own blog, Tim.
The social scene where I dance has all different sized women and they all look spectacular. As a 60 year old woman.....I am not going to pull off "vamp" but at a salsa social there is no stigma to looking hot at any size or gender. It is rare to have a man stare at your chest while dancing. They are trying to LEAD and look where they are going!
ReplyDeleteI would like to offer an alternative perspective, with the understanding that I haven't had time to read the entirety of the Lindy Shopper blog.
ReplyDeleteWomen have the right to wear whatever they like within the bounds of the law. Outright nudity doesn't fly in most places, but other than that, there is a lot of leeway, and we consider that to be a good thing in a culture that values individuality and freedom highly. Similarly, men have a lot of freedom to react to that. Outright sexual assault is illegal, as it should be, but they may cat-call, ogle, make a pass, etc. without fear of much legal reprisal. Again, as a society that values freedom, we see this as a good thing.
However, choosing to exercise that freedom in particular ways can be more or less respectful to others, and can contribute to other people's respect and opinion of you. A guy who makes cat-calls and ogles women is generally considered disrespectful, since he is obviously objectifying her. I've known women who liked to be ogled, and would go out of their way to dress accordingly, and she may have a different opinion, but by and large we look down on guys who exercise their freedom in this way. Similarly, not every guy wants to see significant portions of women's breasts in public, and I don't think that it's under controversy that men are visually stimulated and that is a temptation to them. This does not mean that women are responsible for how a guy reacts to their choice of clothing any more than a guy is responsible for how a women reacts to his words or leering. But we do have to live together.
The way I take this issue is one of respect. I don't have to refrain from cat-calls and leering, but I do because it's respectful to women and (in my mind) the right thing to do. On the flipside, I don't want to see a significant portion of a woman's cleavage coming out the top of her shirt. It makes being respectful with my gaze more difficult and I find it distasteful and a little offensive. And yes, I am absolutely going to assume that someone doing so is trying to attract that lustful kind of attention, and my opinion of them will change accordingly. So I would ask that, out of respect to me as a fellow member of this society that is trying to be respectful to you, you willingly limit your own freedoms as I limit mine and we accommodate each other a bit.
Honestly, I really don't see what about that is so offensive. If you disagree, then don't follow that advice. It is worth understanding, though, what that communicates to others.
You assume, by virtue of a woman having part of her body visible to you, that she is specifically trying to attract your lustful attention?
DeleteGods alive! (or dead.) It's times like this that I am thankful yet again that I don't have large breasts.
"You assume, by virtue of a woman having part of her body visible to you, that she is specifically trying to attract your lustful attention?"
DeleteThere is no scientific account of human evolutionary biology or psychology that says anything but this: a woman showing off her body is attracting attention (and vice versa).
Let's not pretend mother nature doesn't have a strong role in this debate.
"Out of respect to me as a fellow member of this society that is trying to be respectful to you, you willingly limit your own freedoms as I limit mine and we accommodate each other a bit."
This cannot be stated loudly enough.
If someone sitting next to me at lunchtime puts a piece of chocolate cake down, I don't eat it. And I don't get angry at them for displaying their chocolate cake and tempting me to eat it. I might want that chocolate cake, but my desire really has nothing to do with what someone else has for lunch.
DeleteIn the same way, if a woman wears something low cut, I will certainly notice, the same way I notice that chocolate cake. But the world is full of cakes, and breasts, and cars, and expensive clothes, that are out of my reach, and I am not going to insist that everything that makes me hungry or horny or envious be hidden away where I can never see it again. Because the world doesn't revolve around me.
Anyway, I like it if girls dress sexy. And I am perfectly okay with dancing with a sexy girl. And I find it really weird that I'm in a social scene where people seriously argue about whether it is a good thing to dance with a girl who is dressed sexy. WTF?
"'Men are visual creatures' is code for 'women are made to be looked at' and treating us like priceless artifacts to be stored under glass is just as objectifying as treating us like worthless fuckdolls."
DeleteYikes. I find this comment so problematic. "I don't want to see a significant portion of a woman's cleavage coming out the top of her shirt. It makes being respectful with my gaze more difficult and I find it distasteful and a little offensive. And yes, I am absolutely going to assume that someone doing so is trying to attract that lustful kind of attention, and my opinion of them will change accordingly." Seriously? I need to cover my self up because otherwise you'll assume that I'm doing it for your attention and you will have a bad opinion of me? Wow. Some women have large enough breasts that *anything* they wear aside from a baggy t-shirt of turtle neck will expose some of their breasts. This is a fact of the way they are built and has nothing to do with you and "respect". It's about wearing something other than a burka.
DeleteYou're awesome and brilliant.
ReplyDeleteAnd your outfit is killer. KILLER.
I think my biggest issue with Lindy Shopper's original post, many of those comments, and several of comments here are the word choices and what they *actually* mean. I'll break it down;
ReplyDeleteModesty; modesty is the concept of not drawing attention to what you suppose to consider desirable traits or accomplishments. It is ALSO used to describe a way of acting tries not to encourage the opposite sex (or, for this audience, the appropriate attractor).
Here's the problem with that word in today's world; You cannot proceed with judgements surrounding modesty without imposing a set of standards that supports that concept of modesty. I would venture to guess that when we say modesty, we presuppose a puritanical set of values in the USA, but that could never be totally true. In addition, the compact majority of our culture's values directly involves celebrating what we have to be desired for; money, skill, emotional depth, moral soundness, sexual superiority, being smart, and about ten billion other things I can't think of. It is important to us to share what we feel are our best qualities, it's part of how we esteem ourselves.
So to be modest with the body in a public setting, the very setting where one has the opportunity to display their best physical assets like an awesome rack, sexy legs, a great butt, whatever, is removing the freedom to share in an ideal environment. Clearly, anyone can dress how they like as long as it isn't restricted by law, so no one HAS to display anything they don't want, but that's also the point; being modest is not a goal, it's a choice.
ReplyDeleteRespect; To show respect is to show regard for the esteem someone else has for his/herself, in either specific qualities, such as honor, great skill, or kindness, or for a person or concept in general. Specifically, it's what one person does to another, and the qualities of that action.
How I or anyone else dresses has nothing to do with anyone else. On the vast majority, one's dress is an action one makes on oneself, and there are very few specific situations where a impropriety in dress is a sign of disrespect, and most of them have to do with military, royalty, or government, and in those situations, there are agreed upon standards that express those conditions. So when a certain Andrew Bouchard says, "I consider it very respectful to me when women willingly choose to display modesty.", you are taking the stance that the way an anonymous woman dresses is intended FOR you, which is objectification, narcissism, and misogyny in a neat little package.
It's also important that each person decide for themselves why they feel that an action is disrespectful. A random dude you don't know getting drunk at a party isn't disrespectful to a recovering alcoholic, or a Mormon, but it WOULD be disrespectful to try and get them to drink (once you know what their values are). So if something seems disrespectful to you, maybe you're conflating disrespect with introspectively judging how you would feel carrying out those same actions, or perhaps you, like most humans, think the world still revolves around you.
And then there are all the cute cover names for the parts of the body; "The girls" "Melons" "Your bits" "rear end" "risk" etc. etc.
We are all adults, we all know exactly what a Woman's breasts, butt, vagina, body, looks like. We know what a Man's chest, butt, penis, body, looks like. Maybe not each and every person's, but we know. We know what they are and what they do and how attractive they are, conceptually or in reality, to us. When we're afraid to call a breast a breast, a butt a butt, or whatever part of the body we're talking about, we're saying we're ashamed to say it, that there is something about who and what we really are that we're better off forgetting.
And finally, IF a woman's breast falls out of her dress or bra or spandex, that's HER deal, not mine, and it is DEFINITELY not my prerogative to punish her in any way for that, and you have literally no right to do so either. SHE gets to decide if it's a big deal, not me.
This.
DeleteI just...I can't. Like, it's all so ridiculous, and I just can't.
ReplyDelete1. I am so surprised that Lindy Shopper was shocked that her stuff was offensive, and then she admitted she had no idea what "slut shaming" is...never heard of it. WTF? Does she not have facebook? I fucking hate politics and am not politically inclined at all, and even I know what that whole racket is, because social media pushed it on me. I doubt someone with a blog has no idea what it is, and I just don't even believe it. BUT, BUT, BUT! It's America, and her post really sounded to me like all of my neighbors in my hometown. Because some people are just ignorant and offensive and never have to think about it at all. But she admitted poor use of hyperbole, so chalk it up to that, I guess.
2. The implication that anything that was shown is illegal. Toplessness is only explicitly illegal in three states, people! Get educated!! (http://gotopless.org/topless-laws)
3. The very idea that anything I do, be it the way I dress or act or accidentally have a boob fall out in an athletic dance somehow forces men to "lose control" and either become publicly aroused, uncomfortable, or actually prone to assault is so ridiculous in so many ways. I'm so tired of hearing it. I can't even have a rational conversation about it.
4. This idea that lindy hop and especially charleston is so athletic that we big-breasted ladies need to dress in a certain way... It just isn't, at all. I've gone out dancing many times, me and my DDs with no bra, because there are plenty of dresses out there that are supportive, if they fit right. (It would be an awesome conversation to have about the way dresses need to fit in order to keep stuff where it should be...if that's what you desire.)
5. Also, why do we keep having conversations about clothes but refuse to have conversations about how much we touch each other at dances? It's glossed over in lessons and not brought up in blogs, and I don't understand it. Or are we having these ridiculous conversations about clothing because we're too afraid to talk about how much we touch each other? Can we just talk about that?
6. I'm really glad that you wrote this post and spoke out. I think it's awesome that you're willing to be so outspoken. I have completely withdrawn from all scenes, because I can't handle it anymore. The social situations have become too unfriendly for me, and I just didn't even like myself anymore. I'm glad you're in there and having these conversations and that they are trickling down to me via my friends who are still in the scene. Thank you so much for your voice, Christina. It's a wonderful voice and you're using it well!
I'm glad to see the conversation continues. :) I'm not sure I can address everything everyone has said (or should), but Fenna brings up a lot of good points, so I'll start here.
DeleteI stated in my second post that I was not familiar with the term slut shaming, but the concept is not foreign and is something I have studied in rape cases - the term I am more familiar with is victim blaming.
I'm not sure where it was implied that being topless is illegal, but I am interested to know that toplessness is only specifically illegal in three states. It looks like my state (NC) has a pretty vague indecent exposure law ("private parts" - seems dangerously open to interpretation by the police), but that the legislature is trying to clarify that http://www.wxii12.com/news/local-news/north-carolina/Bill-would-apply-NC-indecent-exposure-law-to-topless-women/-/10622650/18368918/-/m9099o/-/index.html It also looks like there are more specific "topless" laws on the books relating to this in city and town ordinances. Now I want to go look up case law for this...such an interesting issue, timely in our community and, appparently, timely in my state. It doesn't surprise me that the NC legislators are trying to push this through, but then I've already had a discussion with Christina about how NC is an embarassment and Sam has mentioned that Australia is embroiled in a debate about breastfeeding...
For your number 3, I've responded to a number of people about this issue, mostly privately, but definitely once on the blog.
This sentence:
“… the consensus has generally been that most guys don’t want to be a horn dog at dances, distracted by so much cleavage or full boobage that it becomes ogling and/or pushes them into creepy territory…”
Concerning this sentence, consider the comma – guys don’t want to feel that way, they consider the distraction, then decide not to ask a follow to dance for the risk. By virtue of the decision not to ask a follow to dance, they have controlled the situation in one way, a way that has a mutually respectful outcome. Consider also the wording – in essence, guys don’t want to be “that guy” who becomes the “creepy guy.” The statement expresses a desire to not become something, not that he will become something by virtue of a lady’s attire.
Some of the guys who have given me feedback on this have stated that they don't have these thoughts or feelings about this particular situation, but some of the guys who have given me feedback do. It's not that they can't control themselves, they'd just rather avoid a situation that is awkward for them.
In your #4, I'd love to know what dresses you are wearing without a bra - no, seriously, I am so ready for dressmakers to give me something supportive, any information you can share on this topic would be fantastic. THIS is a great topic idea and I will be pondering this and continue to look for products that promote support. The few times I have found what I would consider supportive products and written about them, I have received private messages about the garments from women asking for further information to make sure that this would be a viable product for them.
Someone else brought up the touching conversation today in my initial post, which I agree is worthy of discussion. Jason Sager wrote a recent blog post about the topic: http://sagermeister.com/2013/01/11/swing-dancing-and-the-fight-or-flight-response/
I am very sorry to hear that people have been unfriendly to you - after this week, I can empathize and, for the first time since I started dancing 15 years ago, I felt unwelcome in the Lindy Hop community. Thankfully, a lot of people reached out to me, including Christina, and for that I am so grateful. I think I'll stick around for a while. :)